Obama is really starting to piss my shit off.

This stuff is the same as it ever was. So much for "change."

Fucking bullshit! Clark was right. McCain didn't accomplish a whole lot in his military career. Clark didn't attack McCain's record. He attacked that record's relevancy. Why is telling the truth so outrageous?

I guess it's back to the defensive crouch for the Democrats. I look forward to Obama apologizing for running against McCain and putting him to so much bother.

It'd be nice if Americans could actually understand the difference between victimhood and heroism-- it's not just evident in the conflation of being a POW (McCain) with actual combat valor (Kerry), but even in the widespread notion that a lot of those who died in the 9/11 attacks were heroes, when most were just in the wrong place at the wrong time-- but I'm not gonna hold my breath. Any sentimental or poignant tale has a 'hero' as protagonist these days.

No, no, no: THIS is how pathetic 8 year old Schieffer ended his comment:

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.

Bob Schieffer: Really?!

And that's without Schieffer's actual verbal stammering and pathetic offended worshiper tone.

Name me one occasion -- ONE F***ING OCCASION ON WHICH A MAJOR NEWS ANCHOR STAMMERED DEFENDING JOHN KERRY'S WORTH TO BE PREZNIT because he was SHOT in Vietnam.

I want to see John Kerry go on tv tonight and say the same damned thing Wes Clark did, and see how people react to that. Like Clark, Kerry actually commanded men in combat.

I'd like to see Obama reject Kerry too. Obama's not going to have any goddamned friends left at this rate.

"It'd be nice if Americans could actually understand the difference between victimhood and heroism...but even in the widespread notion that a lot of those who died in the 9/11 attacks were heroes..."

Good one, Latts. I dodged a wild bicyclist without spilling my coffee on the way into the office this morning - I'm a hero - where's my Medal of Freedom?

In fact, at one point in an on camera interview McCain admitted he was a lousy pilot...

Should McCain publicly distance himself from himself for disparaging his service to his country.

..or is that Barak's job?

Where is the outrage? Why didn't Barak stand-up for McCain when McCain was being highly critical of McCain's service?

I mean, if you are going to be a suck-up you might as well go al the way...huh Ezra?

Hope you are happy with Barak Ezra...remember you helped him over the line...

....and we all have to live with the results..is it too early to say "Republican Lite"..or too late?

BTW, I believe McCain lost several aircraft a prior to his crashing one over NVA territory.

Man...from one clown to the next. it's hard to tell from this story who's a bigger clown McCain or Obama.

Clearly Clark is head and shoulders above both men.

Now, if he bailed without a parachute and survived by landing on a car hood in a junkyard and then personally saved his daughter from atomic Mussulmen with a VTOL fighter, then he could be like governor of California. But that's different.

You wanna remind me why you wanted us to nominate this guy, again, Ezra?

I saw this coming. Why didn't you?

Well, that's a fine how-do-you-do to Clark, huh? Is Obama really suggesting that Clark doesn't "honor and respect McCain's service"? Couldn't they have at least had the decency to come out with a joint statement with Clark?

As I said over at Carpetbagger, that "Get disappointed by someone new" bumper sticker is looking like an appealing pickup...

I thought that General Clark's comments appeared overly harsh. Reading the transcript, the words sound less abrasive than when he spoke them. There was a smugness to his tone that grated. He also seemed to imply that leading large numbers of troops in combat was a necessary (or at least highly desirable) qualification for the Presidency, which is absurd and not particularly helpful if you are supporting the candidate with no military experience against an opponent who had a lengthy career in the Navy. I don't think General Clark has ever been a very effective surrogate and I think that Obama needed to disown his comments. McCain may have once been honest enough to downplay his military record, but today he is playing martyr in front of the media in Pennsylvannia.

Obama's not playing to win, he's playing to not-lose.

Which is how you lose.

Obama ran on the campaign promise "I'll cave in to the right at every opportunity", he just phrased it differently, as many of us pointed out at the time. So why is this, and his cave on FISA, dismaying, rather than predictable?

Anyone who has followed Clark's comments in recent weeks knows that he's said essentially the same thing more than once: McCain is running in part on his military record, and that record doesn't give anyone a good reason to vote for him. Clark's not questioning McCain's personal courage; he's questioning the relevance of McCain's experience as an officer to his capacity to serve as President. The Obama campaign needs to do the same thing. Perhaps repudiating Clark is part of a strategy--planting a message while disavowing it. But if it's not that, Obama, Axelrod, et al. should be ashamed of themselves. This is no time to cave, and it's no time to ignore the fact that Clark was clearly correct.

I listened to Clark's comments. They were neither smug, nor grating. That's your emotional baggage. He was interrupted by the guy from CBS for merely suggesting that War Hero does not equal President. He interrupted Clark to point out Obama wasn't a war hero, which was itself odd because the relevant point is the relevancy of war hero to Presidential leadership, not whether both candidates could claim the irrelevant status.

Is this a fighting Democrat that can dispell the myth that Dems are weak on foreign affairs? Sadly no!

Obama is probably going to like serving out his Senate term with his arms around Lieberman and co-sponsoring every bill sent by McCain to the Congress. What a wus!

Being a war hero qualifies you to be President when you are a Republican.

Being a war hero DOES NOT qualify you to be President when you are a Democrat; in that case you are a long-faced French-looking whiner about whom it's okay to suggest he faked his wounds and to wear purple bandaids at your national convention to highlight that point.

F***ing McCain / Republican worshiping media, man.

There was nothing wrong in what Gen. Clark said, but it was an unhelpful distraction. He needed to defend his (true) statement that "McCain is largely untested and untried on national security issues", without being too dismissive of McCain's service and record. It was a tricky two-step, and he didn't quite manage it.

Though the smelling salt hysterics of Bob Schieffer and Rick Sanchez at the thought of anyone questioning John McCain was amusing.

Perhaps getting shot down isn't a particular qualification for president. Military service vs. an utter lack of military service is. Understanding first hand the misery war inflicts vs. not having a clue is. Listening to the commanders vs. utterly ignoring them is. And most importantly, the willingness to make military decisions based on your best judgment of what is good for the country when your own children are in the line of fire is.

In a thousand years I would never trust Obama to keep my grandchildren out of a war when it could be avoided or to competently command my children in a war which could not be avoided. There is nothing in his life story to suggest that he would stand up to the prevailing winds under either circumstance.

Duke Cunningham for President!

Anyway, what Davis X. said: the Obama campaign has slipped into traditional Democratic don't-lose mode far too fucking fast for my liking.

There's always the prospect that Clark knew he'd take one for the team to get the meme out there, but that just perpetuates a bad habit of running away from conflicts with truthiness.

Why? Because it validates the MSM's festival of arslikhan towards St John McCain.

I'm sick of all these 'unhelpful distraction' concern trolls. It isn't unhelpful, it's very helpful. The only people who get pissed off at this shit are the so-called wise men of washington. To everyone else, this just helps perpetuate the idea that they are out of touch by forcing them to go batshit about the kind of thing that most Americans don't care about, while refusing to speak a word against the economic problems currently facing this country.

uhm - no. historically the last post is wrong.

Way to obfuscate the real issues here Ezra. Played it like a Obamaton the whole way.

Now imagine Obama had been shot down in Desert Storm and held for 5 years as a POW

Only to emerge as having been a leader of his fellow POWs during those 5 years of hell.

Can you imagine how nuts the Democrats and the Press would go if any Republican dared question his

Military service? Well of course not because we saw how crazy they went over John Kerry’s fellow veterans questioning his service.

The real facts are these. No, flying a fighter and getting shot down isn’t going to make you a great President, but it certainly says a lot about your personal fortitude, your personal courage and your ability to cope and deal with the most difficult stresses.

Someone who has gone through the rigors of becoming a fighter pilot deserves some respect for their

ability, skill, and determination. Not everyone can accomplish this feat.

Obama never even learned to fly a Cessna let alone a fighter, let alone in combat.

Someone who has faced death and carried out their mission anyway says even more about their personal character.

We know he has been tested in ways Obama never has. Sure someone some where probably called Obama the N-word…

Imagine how much personal anguish and suffering that caused, I mean compare to 5 years of daily torture at the hands of

an enemy that hates you and wants to break your will more then anything in the world.

Again, its certainly not going to cause you to be a great President, but it again shows great personal inner strength, courage and

Leadership to organize and lead a group of POWs under constant daily stress the likes of which Obama cannot even dream.

McCain hand years of chances to show his mettle and it always shined.

You can say for sure that if America is attacked again, you won’t find McCain curled in a ball under his desk sucking his thumb, or his nicorette gum....

I think Howard Dean said it best:

Dean said in March 2004, "Who would you rather have in charge of the defense of the United States of America, a group of people who never served a day overseas in their life, or a guy who served his country honorably and has three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star on the battlefields of Vietnam?"

McCain, by the way, has been awarded the Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals, a Purple Heart and the Distinguished Flying Cross.

a bit more Orwellian ramblings
Up is down, left is right. Black is white. Good is bad. Bad is good. We are obfuscating because you are. Military records matter, but not poor judgement on things like Iraq when discussing the iraqi war and who can lead us out. Got it because your 'grandkids" will be safe with a guy promising 100 years of war. again, got it. the only mistake obama made here is not understand that the only right answer for many of you is "no obama" so you might as well be straight up since triangulating only embolden this sort of Orwellian logic.

One more thing, why the fuck should anyone go on tv, take a chance, and stick up for Obama if he's just going to reject them? Who needs the grief?

I hope this Wesley Clark episode will serve as a wake up call for Obama. His incremental move to the center and to presenting himself as a "non offender" is beginning to irritate his minions who have bank rolled his campaign. Clark's comments were laudatory of McCain's service and his role as a hero to many. For the Obama campaign to "reject" Clark's comments is cause for serious concern.
Clearly Clark was correct when he pointed out being shot from a plane is not a prerequisite for being president.What is wrong with that statement and why throw the good General from the bus? I shall continue donating to the campaign when I see him abandon his recent weak wrist positions.

C'mon Democrats. Show some respect for basic reality. Attacking McCain for his service in Vietnam (no matter what the exact context) is not going to help. If anything, it has the potential to anger moderates potentially ready to give Obama a chance, despite their doubts. Plus, it puts the spotlight back on McCain's story -- just where he wants it.

Let 2004 go. The Swift-Boating happened, but now it's over. Let's not spend this election re-fighting the last one.

Wesley Clark lost his NATO job for kanoodling with some of his female staff, so I assume he has passed the Bill Clinton standard for high office.
John Kerry "earned" his medals by avoiding any significant combat actions (according to those who served closest to him). Afterwards, he aided and abetted American traitors and demeaned the actions of a generation of soldiers who, unlike him, did serve their full tour in Vietnam.

Great, a new idiot's meme is born: Clark goes out of his way and calls McCain a hero for his Vietnam service. Then, using Shieffer's own words, says that he doesn't think merely serving in the military grants magic policy making powers. And Presto! Now Clark was "attacking McCain for his service in Vietnam".

idiot is right- what they count on is no one bothering to actually read or listen to what Clark said, and instead listen to the spin. This is why what Obama did was so fucking stupid. It will be spun as bad for him no matter what. My only hope is that he learned a vital lessonf rom this. Namely- think more moves ahead than just responding to the obvious manipulations such that you get backed into a silly corner. How would the situation has been different if he had worded a response that reflect the reality of what Clark was getting at?

What amazes me the most are the claims by Clark that somehow McCain's military service doesn't provide him the foreign policy experience, while ignoring what McCain has done in the Senate? This McCain supporter agrees, that his military service and being a POW does not qualify him to be President. However, if you make that argument, what does that say about your guy who has spent his political career at the state level with less then one term in Congress? What has Obama done in the Senate compared to McCain? I would think the McCain camp is willing to have this debate because the question of experience hurts Obama. Also, for Clark to infer that Obama's speaking abilities are something to run on are laughable, but will probably be lapped up by the Obamabots.

Where was today's Obama back when Move On was taking ads out with General BETRAY US....oh yeah, that's right, Obama wouldn't condemn Move On.....but I guess we have a different Obama today.

Are we sure his Momma didn't have twins??

Unlike John McCain, Obama isn't even capable of taking a stand with a simple vote...he slinks away, unable to stand and deliver.

akaison,
You really need to update your arguments. The coalition had MORE casualities in Afghanistan last month then in Iraq.

Obama has no timetable to leave Afghanistan. He's planning on staying till Baby Alex can have his throat slit by a falafel vendor pissed that Obama keeps sending more troops into Afghanistan.

BRUSSELS, Belgium - It's a grim gauge of U.S. wars going in opposite directions: American and allied combat deaths in Afghanistan in May passed the monthly toll in Iraq for the first time.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates used the statistical comparison to dramatize his point to NATO defense ministers that they need to do more to get Afghanistan moving in a better direction. He wants more allied combat troops, more trainers and more public commitment.

More positively, the May death totals point to security improvements in Iraq that few thought likely a year ago.

Obama's war has no end.....

Let me try this again. Clark specifically said that this is about judgement. If you want to discuss McCaiin's judgement in the Senate- then bring it. It's a battle you would lose. The problem is that he is doing the dog whistle of "i am a war hero" as proxy for commander in chief. This is inappropriate. This is all about spin. Your side, although sleazy, won this cycle because Obama needs to learn how to think strategically. The primaries were easy because clinton was an easier target. No one liked her. People like McCain- even if it is for the wrong reason. The point is to remind them that it's for the wrong reason. I am all for talking about his shitty Senate record if you are.

One point that is lost is that being in the military builds leadership and character. You don't even have to be a captain, even the lowest levels have to have strength of character.

Is it a guarantee? No, but more likely someone from the military will have strong leadership and character. Thats why a lot of companies tend to hire people with military backgrounds.

Now, if given a choice between someone who's spent their career in the military versus a community organizer, who would be more likely qualified to be commander-and-chief? the answer is painfully obvious.

EK, you are as silly as Clark, whose rep in the military was as a relentless suck-up & political grandstander. He was despised by his peers & those who served under him, according to my military pals, and this little p.o.s. has no authority to piss on McCain's captivity.

Kerry did less in Vietnam than McCain, but touted his war record relentlessly. He still hasn't handed over his military records as promised, but nobody expected that fraud to do so.

The Swift Boat captains saw through Kerry and Dem frauds like EK & Clark right away. They are true heroes for saving our country from a phoney like Kerry.

by the logic of the last post we should be considering Ollie North for a VP post then since all one needs to do is be in the military. Interestingly, just 4 years ago, it wasn't enough for Kerry. But, no- it can't be an argument of convience over what people know to be a perceived flaw in their own thinking.

Wes Clark is every bit as much a hero as John McCain. He was wounded 4 times in Vietnam, but kept returning for multiple tours of duty. Anyone who doubts his courage isn't worth listening too. They are poinsoned by political enmity.

That said, I think that Clark is a poor spokesman for the Obama campaign. His comments struck me as harsh upon first hearing them. I understand his point, but he doesn't communicate it well - his ego gets in the way.

His comments seem more about him comparing himself to McCain than anything having to so with Obama. He seems to be miffed that McCain has this big rep as a hero, while Clark won the Balkan War and got too little credit. I appreciate the General's service, but heroism is a creation of pr and media spin - not that I doubt McCain's courage, or Clark's for that matter. McCain's capture and imprisonment became mythologized into heroism, just like Kennedy's crashing his PT boat into a Japanese cruiser did.

I just don't see how this debate helps Obama. Clark should just forget about Nam and focus on McCain's positions on pretty much every foreign policy decision of the past ten years. McCain has been wrong almost every time. That is a much more effective line of criticism. Much better to go after the real McCain of today than the myth of thirty-five years ago.

again- no- his point was plainly that McCain's record isn't something upon which we can judge whether he will make a good commander and chief. It's his judgment. That's why he mentions in the extended interview that although Obama doesn't have military experience (by way we do you know have a civilian leader of the military for a reason) he does have better judgment than mcCain. Were Obama not so tactically smart, strategically stupid, he could later argue as their narrative was built up that in deed he is better situated than mccain. look, here's the thing- part of the problem is that anyone not a republican on this wants to be 'fair.' which to me means stupid. this is about defining mccain before certain views become unsaid and unassalable in the public persona. mccain as commander and chief needs to be torn down. this was plainly obvious from the recent polls on the subject. to allow it to continue to to ceed territory that doesn;t need to be ceeded.

Man, can we just listen to what was said - the whole of what was said. Clark was making a point about McCain's military service apart from his captivity. Schieffer then interjects what is probably all he knows about McCain's military record - that he flew planes and was shot down. Clark is simply correcting Schieffer's ignorance - likely so he wouldn't be blamed for saying it. Lazy reporters then go into mock outrage, manufacturing something out of nothing on what is the beginning of a slow 4th of July week.

barack obama was smart not to say or encourage anything to discount or invalidate mccain's service.
i think barack obama did the right thing.

say whatever you will about john mccain, he was courageous and that certainly counts in making executive decisions, and i think obama was right to disconnect from clark's comments.

every week, there will be another controversy....the women who were insulted by volunteers, the words of wesley clark, the silence of bill clinton, the matter of hillary's debt.....
....if you want to win the race, you cant keep stopping to remove every pebble out of your shoes.

some obama supporters and hillary supporters may be losing faith, but honestly, what matters now, is winning the election, and keeping eyes focused on the prize.
the less ammunition that is given to the republicans, the better. i think there is wisdom in what he is doing.
those who didnt like him to begin with, or are smarting from his victory, may now be acting like self -congratulatory naysayers everytime they perceive a misstep, but again, i think that one has to lose battles in order to win the war.
i pay no heed to the grumblers and naysayers. my eyes are on the prize, and that is what i am working toward.
losing faith always give us the excuse we are looking for to fall back into old patterns of negativity and cynicism.
barack obama is doing exactly what needs to be done to win the election.
unfortunately, it is not a perfect world.
but i think we have a wonderful candidate and bright days ahead if we can win the election!!!

:-) :-)
when you are in a delicate and complicated situation, just stop grumbling and stay focused on what you need to do to get to the place where you want to be.

I think it is clear that Obama has yet again set up a false foil designed simply to establish a premise against which to argue. No one has controlled the message better than Obama. And Clark is no rogue surrogate. Obama either sanctioned, or at least was aware of, Clark's comments, which were made precisely so that Obama could "distance" himself from attacks on patriotism. This does two things -- it creates a foundation from which he can make his fancy speech on patriotism (do you really think it was a coincidence that Clark made the comments 24 hours before Obama's big lecture in Missouri?). And it also allows him to insulate himself from criticism of his own patriotism by claiming that no one should engage in such attacks (just the same way he made a preemptive strike on the race issue 2 weeks ago).

It is not complicated people -- it is all classic Obama. And it is no accident. Wright's stop at the Press Club could have been set up in the same way -- to allow Obama an opportunity to come out publicly and finally denounce the man.

Next stop-- Iraq. Obama will make his tour of the Middle East, and proclaim to have seen new facts on the ground which necessitate change of policy. He has not been to Iraq in over 2 years -- and rejected McCain's invitation to make a joint trip. Yet he will go now (one wonders how he has all this time after being in such a rush to start fighting against McCain) -- soon enough after the primary and long enough before the general to hope that people forget all his incredible and disingenuous flips. According to Clark, there are oodles of time before the convention for Obama to travel and get his CIC training - training that even by Clark's admission, Obama cannot get on the job in November.

That's funny -- I thought the whole reason he had to bounce Hillary and compel unity was because there is so little time to fight McCain over the summer. Guess what he meant to say is that he needed all the time he could get between June and August to rush to the center, turn his [proclaimed] progressive policies on their head, travel abroad and learn how to be CIC -- all with enough time left over to woo back all the supporters he pissed off along the way.

a song for this young man,
barack obama,
as he continues on this momentous,
and seemingly endless gauntlet.....

"whenever i am tempted ,whenever clouds arise,
when songs give place to sighing, when hope within me dies,
i draw the closer to Him, from care He
sets me fee,
His eye is on the sparrow, and i know
He watches me."

~eye on the sparrow
civilla martin/charles gabriel
1905

Everyone says that the ideal VP should be an "attack-dog" who can say mean, nasty things about the other guy while the top of the ticket gets to look "presidential" and above-the-fray. Is that not exactly what happened in this case? Clark landed a punch, Obama got to look magnanimous and presidential. How is this a bad thing?

I don't remember the media pretending to be outraged when folks were passing around purple heart band-aids at the 2004 Republican National Convention. Now why would that be?

like hikers,
we start out in fair weather,
with water, good spirits and energy.
....the weather changes.
the hot winds blow...
the rain comes.
people grow weary, hot,cold
and impatient.
suddenly, the leader is to blame.
half the people are grumbling.
some feel they could have done it better.
.........let's stay the course.
stay calm, focused.
conserve resources
and energy,
work together...
trust in the plan.
look how far we have come!
through impossible and everchanging
events and circumstances....
who ever would have thought
we could have come so far!!!!!
at the first sign of discouragement,
the impulse is to blame,
cut, run.
we have a wonderful leader.
trust in the plan.
work hard.
and we will all get home safely!!!
we are walking in victory...
faith makes all things possible,
just not easy.
:-) :-)

Clark is a moron. Why did he even have to say that.

Obama has serious issues to deal with. And defending a moron like Clark will do nothing.

"Now, if given a choice between someone who's spent their career in the military versus a community organizer, who would be more likely qualified to be commander-and-chief? the answer is painfully obvious."

How about we take a certain political question, instead, and see which of the two politicians running for the political office was right on it?

"John Kerry "earned" his medals by avoiding any significant combat actions (according to those who served closest to him)."

Rua-row, Scooby. The guys accusing Kerry were not the ones who served on his boat with him. They were the ones on stage with him at the Democratic convention. The people who questioned his conduct in the war were people like John O'Neil, who's made Kerry-sliming into some sort of industry.

Oh the irony of watching the Obamacans drown in their own bullying cry of "change!"

christian

this is a culture that lives in the moment.
maybe it comes from living on ancient sunlight.
unfortunately, the rest of the universe doesnt work on the timetable of shortsightedness and impatience.

this is symptomatic of a turning that has to happen in the heart before it can happen in the body of politics.

Obama has never served in the military, much less directed men OR survived being a POW.

Clark had every right to say anything he wanted. He's a commanding general and his reputation is not hurt from objectively speaking about a fellow officer.

But if his remark is tied to Obama, it's Obama who gets royally screwed because "Obama", with no military experience, does not have the right to question anyone's military service.

I don't really understand why Obama's response is an issue. It's not a "move to the center". It's not a cave in to anyone. It's called a sense of basic human decency and an awareness of the limitations of your own experience and, yes, how fucking petty and coarse it would look to everyone.

Oddly the Constitution doesn't require military service to be President, and in fact, it speciifically makes the commander and chief a civilian- wonder why?on another note- paula's a troll.

Look, asshat, I didn't say it was a fucking requirement. I said that this is, quite honestly, how it looks to people, including myself even if I generally have a hatred for the way military sacrifice is used to obfuscate debates of "military neccessity". However, I've also never been shot down a plane and held hostage and tortured for five years, so fuck if I or any else in my situation can say anything about whether or not such an experience would, in fact, make you suited for something like the presidency.

There's an objective difference between Clark actually saying something critical about McCain's military service and Obama even implying something. And what's more, there are probably people who read in Clark's tone-deaf response the arrogance of high-rank officers to the "regulars" that they send into battle.

It's not a sacrifice for any of these mouths with access to a microphone to exercise some restraint. Schieffer set Clark up for a doozy and if he was dumb enough to fall through and cause a completely avoidable ruckus, then he should be more careful next time.

BTW, I wasn't even responding to anyone in particular, so why should you feel it your duty to respond to me?

Everyday the media bombards us with negative, racially coded statements about Obama yet no one gets upset with McCain or his campaign, but the minute Obama says something all hell breaks loose. I guess your idea is that he'd better "stay in his place" and not say anything bad about the white man who is perfect and does no wrong. I'm really getting sick of all this nonsense. I hear more republicans constantly saying negative things about Barack than I do democrats saying about McCain.

Forgot what I was searching for when I ended up here ... but stayed because of the phrase "blood libel" ... and it took me a moment to realize it was sarcasm. (doh!) lol ...

Anyway ... as to the matter at hand ... specifically the Obama campaign's response ... Well, that's just the same old bullshit, isn't it? i.e., "politics is politics."

But Obama is supposed to be something else. Better than. New and improved.

Let's see it, O. I mean it.