Umm... If you know all of this, what on earth makes it a good deal?

This is like one of those Washington Post editorials that details a million things wrong with the war... and then decides we should stay in Iraq forever anyway. I can't shake the feeling someone's got their finger on the scales of Editorial opinion in the blogosphere. The nearly universal praise for this bill is strong against the overwhelming hostility to it in most of the comment sections.

I'll reiterate one last point: I, and most of the rest of us, could give a good god damn less who "benefits" politically from this. What we care about is that this is going to hurt american workers. If you're in politics to "win" and not to affect change, then there's no way I'm going to cross any more bridges with the Democrat party.

erm.. that should be Democratic Party. Not quite willing to go over the other side. That would be jumping out of a mud puddle, and jumping into a hog pit.

Enough people from the far left and far right are outraged by this bill that I'm starting to think it's a pretty reasonable place to be.

Look at the hurdles that have to be jumped before any of that becomes a reality. Over 300 miles of border fences and walls, and thousands more border patrol agents. Who thinks we will ever really get to the point of the benefits actually happening for immigrants? I just see more of the same, including more nasty rhetoric.

Prior to 9-11, the standard metric was that 95% of the "unauthorized" immigrants returned to their nation of origin. Furthermore, these "unauthorized" would return three or four times in one life time.

Given that the confused conservatives went wacko and offered out their mantra for "security first", I chuckle when a confused conservative is challenged. To wit, "Have they found or located any jalapeno or tijuana terrorists?"

Jaango

Is this better than nothing? If the z-visas come with a requirement that the holder has to return to their home country for a year and then pass through the points-based "merit" system, then it is too poorly designed to be all that effective. Also, while the guest worker program may be an acceptable trade for some kind of legalization, I don't think that scrapping our family-based immigration in favor of some undefined points-based system designed by the White House is a good thing.

I have not seen the details yet, but it certainly seems too soon to call this "better than nothing." My only hope is that the Senate will be able to completely re-work the bill like they did last year.

Despite its flaws, this bill is good. It gives one-time concessions to the bigots and racists (wall, BP bullies).

But the concessions to our side accumulate year after year. Which would you rather have - a one-time bonus, or guaranteed raises every year?

And soon, we'll be able to tear down the wall (if we don't tie it up in court first) and fire the BP bullies, yet our visa provisions will keep bringing in more migrants as far as the eye can see.

Think about the -next- immigration bill, the bill of 2010. That one will simply say, "Finally, the US is living up to the words embodied in the Statue of Liberty and opening its borders to all peaceable workers and families, no strings attached."

Talk, not everyone who disagrees with you is a bigot and a zealot. Some of us are just capable of seeing the issue here. More Labor=Lower Wages. The logic never really has to go beyond that to see the flaw in a guest worker program. It's just the enshrining into law of a caste society. so no, it's not a good bill. It's the worst of all worlds.

Jaango, conservatives can't end this problem because they are too beholden to business to do what has to be done. We need massive per-person fines against any employer of illegal aliens. fines that, by statute, can't be waved. you will never end this problem trying to end supply. We're never going to be able to out shit-hole Mexico (Try as we continually do). Attack demand, and supply will dry up. These people are here for jobs, not services. Without those jobs, they will not come here.

"you will never end this problem trying to end supply. We're never going to be able to out shit-hole Mexico"

But, Soullite, isn't your contention that part of the US, at least for some people, is turning into a shithole?

Soullite,

Just a couple of points.

First, back in the olden days when NAFTA was being debated in Congress, I was in Mexico, and I was being asked by my banking buddies, about the outcome. Needless to say, Mexico wanted to protect is liquor industry, and in particular, the tequila portion, since it kept the jobs in Mexico. The USA wanted access and control of Mexico's banking infrastructure. And therein is the difference.

As to NAFTA in particular, having the Mexican government dis-invest itself from the ownership of the organized labor tool box, would seriously reduce the migration flow from Mexico into the USA.

And yet, the technocrats in Mexico, and making these decisions were trained in the USA at such educational institutions as Stanford, U of Chicago, MIT, and other prestigious institutions. Thus, Mexico's citizens on the lower-waged step of the economic ladder, is getting slapped twice. Thusly, Democrats have to get Mexico to dis-invest itself of the tool box, otherwise, immigration "reform" will return on a periodic basis in order that we can continue to apply some duct tape to our "bad" public policies.

m570k

"you will never end this problem trying to end supply. We're never going to be able to out shit-hole Mexico"

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