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The group blog of The American Prospect

DEFENDING DEMOCRACY THROUGH THE USE OF KHMER ROUGE TORTURE.

Cliff May on torture:

"On one extreme of the debate over interrogating terrorists are the Jack Bauers, those who -- like the lead character in Fox’s hit series “24”-- think you do whatever it takes to get the information you need from someone plotting mass murder. At the other extreme is the anti-war left: They wouldn’t harm a hair on 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s head to save Disneyland at Christmas."

Leaving aside the question of why it might be more desirable to save Disneyland on Christmas ("Oh, it's only Arbor Day? Hmm...better get the sheikh some more hot cocoa."), I should point out, once again, that the real difference between the two groups May describes is that the former actually exists. May sets up these two extremes, one which supports the electrocution of genitals and the other which supports reiki massage, in a transparently bogus attempt to locate a "reasonable, waterboard-supporting middle" to which he and all other serious and thoughtful people belong.

Here’s former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) Malcolm Nance, with a Small Wars Journal entry entitled ”Waterboarding is Torture…Period":

”With regards to the waterboard, I want to set the record straight so the apologists can finally embrace the fact that they condone and encourage torture.

[…]

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again.

Read the whole thing.

Back to torture-supporter Cliff May:

"It has been widely reported that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was subjected to waterboarding and, as a result, he surrendered intelligence that led to the foiling of terrorist plots and the saving of innocent lives. Do you regret that? Would you tell those sworn to protect and defend Americans never to do it again – accepting the consequences of that policy?

We won’t be able to answer such difficult questions unless the moral posturing and partisan maneuvering stop, and a serious debate begins."

What was "widely reported" were the Bush administration's claims that the torture of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad saved lives. Given that the "ticking time-bomb" scenario is purely an argumentative construct for the purpose of justifying torture (and for salving the consciences of people who support torture), and given the Bush gang's consistently strained relationship with the truth, as well as the utter lack of compunction they have shown over stoking Americans' worst fears for the slightest political advantage, I remain extremely skeptical.

In any case, I'd offer that the serious debate over torture has already begun. Malcolm Nance is a part of it. Cliff May is not. Until May and others quit playing rhetorical games around the waterboarding technique, until they recognize that waterboarding is, in fact, torture, and proceed from there, they won't be.

--Matthew Duss



COMMENTS

Maybe if waterboarding isn't so bad (and especially isn't *torture*), one of these brave conservatives like Cliff May can volunteer to undergo it himself to show us how it feels.

You know, the way a scientist might puncture the aura of skepticism around a new vaccine by trying it on himself.

Because if you really believe something works, wouldn't you want to prove it?

Hear hear, Chris.

"It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning."

Bravo. Sensible people, who support collecting whatever dignity we can making our precarious way through the war on terror, are hoodwinked by linguistic acrobatics like "simulated drowing." The drowning is "simulated" because a cloth stands in the way? That is preposterous.

Whoa. "The lungs are actually filling with water"? I've read a lot about the waterboarding debate, and I didn't know that. The general impression you get from its supporters (and not adequately countered by its detractors) is that it's just a matter of pouring water onto someone's face in such a way as to trigger a lot of irrational fear.

We should dispense with the ticking time-bomb scenario this way: Remember that Jack Bauer is willing to become a criminal and a pariah in order to defuse the ticking time-bomb. A good soldier will make the sacrifice. That does not mean that the good soldier wants to live in a world where torturers are promoted rather than sanctioned.

Is Disneyland even open on Christmas day? And if it isn't, doesn't that make May's point even stupider?

Yes, Disneyland is open on Christmas day, but even if it weren't, it wouldn't make May's comments any dumber than they already are. You really cannot get much dumber than the posted comment.

One other point that needs to be made, though: the primary purpose of torture is to get the victim to say what you want him to say. As such, it's an idiotic tool to employ, particularly since there are much more effective ways to get someone to talk.

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