Robert Greenwald has produced and directed some of the most talked-about documentary films in recent years, including Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism and Uncovered: The War on Iraq, which is now opening in theaters across the country. On a recent Friday afternoon, he spoke from his Culver City, California, office about Ambassador Joseph Wilson, dramatist Bertolt Brecht, and what it's like to make a movie when everybody tells you you're crazy.
What made you decide to work on Uncovered?
I came across a newspaper article about Iraq that mentioned "programs for weapons of mass destruction" -- it was buried in the body of the article. And I thought, we didn't go to war for a program. [George W.] Bush didn't stand up there and say, “They're gonna launch a program in 45 minutes.” I decided right then and there I was going to make a film juxtaposing what the Bush administration said about the weapons of mass destruction with the current information about programs. The next day, I read about Ray [McGovern, a former CIA analyst who's critical of the Iraq War] and tracked him down. I also got in touch with Ambassador Joe Wilson. They became the cornerstone in helping me reach out to other people; they showed this film was something of integrity.
Many of the people your film featured, including [Ahmad] Chalabi and [George] Tenet, have since lost their jobs. Do you feel vindicated?
No. When I was making the film, people were telling me, "You're crazy. They're going to find the weapons, and you'll be a laughing stock. Your career will be over." But I was confident if they found anything, it was not going to be something that would lead us to war. The notion of vindication? I've worked closely with a group called Military Families Speak Out. When you embrace the parents of children who've been killed in the war, there's no way to have feelings other than distraught and pain. It's an enormous tragedy for all of us.
What should we do about Iraq?
Remember, I'm a filmmaker, not a policy-maker.
True. But you lay out a good argument for why we shouldn't be there. What now?
I think we should get out. A measured pullout, over time, cannot be any worse than what we're doing now. We've occupied a country, killing people in the name of bringing them democracy. The sooner we have a radical policy change, the better.
How did you market the film?
I'd already made 50-some movies in a commercial way -- including network movies, cable movies, and theatrical films. With Uncovered, my goal was to get the movie out as quickly as possible. I didn't want to be at the mercy of the traditional gatekeepers. They move at a different pace, and they have a different agenda. So we created a three-part marketing model. MoveOn, AlterNet, The Nation, and BuzzFlash made the film available over the Internet. The Center for American Progress did targeted screenings around the country. Then MoveOn did house parties. That was phase one. And because we've had such a tremendous response, we've lucked into phase two. The film has a commercial theatrical distributor, Cinema Libre, taking it to supermarkets, malls, shopping centers, and art houses. And we're releasing both Uncovered and Outfoxed on commercial DVD. So far, we've sold more than 100,000 copies of them.
A Washington Post critic calls you the "Joyce Carol Oates of documentary filmmaking."
[Laughs]. There's only been four [Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election; Uncovered; Outfoxed; and Unconstitutional, which is about the erosion of civil liberties and will open on September 13]. Oates has written 50 books.
Well, you only started in '02.
This is true. Well, if you give a workaholic this kind of opportunity … . I do think we're at the most critical time in the life of the country. The things we're struggling with are going to be with us for a very long time: How do we deal with terrorism? Clearly, you can't just go around bombing countries. But we're going to have to have a serious debate about what the ways to deal with it while at the same time preserving the values of our country. These debates go to the essence of who we are. Making a few films is an extraordinary opportunity for me to participate in them.
From Xanadu [Greenwald's 1980 film, starring Olivia Newton-John] to Uncovered: How did that happen?
Well, that's just one film. If you look at the other movies I've made, you'll find an enormous percentage of them have a social component -- from Steal This Movie [a 2000 film about Abbie Hoffman] to The Burning Bed [a 1984 TV movie about domestic violence] to Shattered Spirits [a 1986 TV movie about alcoholism]. The body of my work is pretty consistent. What I've never done before is documentaries.
How do you deal with the prejudice people in Washington have toward people in Hollywood?
Ultimately, you have to decide to do the work you might believe in and do it in a serious and substantive fashion and to have some humility. As I say, I am not a policy person. I do not have the years of experience of the people in Uncovered. I'm a citizen, and I have strong opinions. I'm able to tell stories with film. It's a nonsense, right-wing attack to tell us to shut up. The last time I looked, what you do in a democracy is participate -- whether you're an actor or a bricklayer. The fact that we get access to media, well, we would be, to use the polite word, nuts not to use it.
You have a quote from Walt Whitman on your office wall. Who are your other influences?
[Bertolt] Brecht.
Perfect.
I have the quote somewhere on my wall. [Walks away from the phone]. Here it is: "Hollywood" by Bertolt Brecht. "Every morning to earn my bread, I go to the market where lies are bought. With renewed hope, I join the ranks of the sellers." I have it there just to give me a little perspective. I've got a [Carl] Jung quote, too, on the wall: "A man who has not passed through the infernos of his passions has never overcome them. They then dwell in the house next door. And at any moment, a fire may dart out and set fire to his own house. Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that the things we have neglected will return with added force."
You said you made Uncovered because "we all have short emotional memories." What did you mean?
Well, we remember facts. Or we remember "X" speech. But what was extraordinary about the selling of the war was the way it went to emotional issues and used post-9-11 traumas, uncertainties, and terrors. Without that, I don't think [the administration] would have been able to sell it. In acting terms, there's something called the subtext, what is underneath the words. So even when [administration officials] weren't saying it, there was always the notion that the terrorism that had happened was going to happen again -- and it would be worse. I wanted to bring back the fear level they used in order to get the country to go to war.
Tara McKelvey is a Prospect senior editor.
